<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Responding as politely as possible</title>
	<atom:link href="http://walt.lishost.org/2009/05/responding-as-politely-as-possible/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://walt.lishost.org/2009/05/responding-as-politely-as-possible/</link>
	<description>The library voice of the radical middle.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 23 May 2013 16:58:01 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.5.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Peter Murray</title>
		<link>http://walt.lishost.org/2009/05/responding-as-politely-as-possible/comment-page-1/#comment-37698</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Murray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 01:26:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://walt.lishost.org/?p=1270#comment-37698</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jim Carlile says: &lt;blockquote&gt;And itâ€™s already begun. To get back to planet Earth, Google has now restricted the downloading of a number of PD journal titles.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

If the content is truly in the public domain, then anyone can do anything they want with it -- including limiting the number of downloaded copies or how the content is viewed online.  In other words, there is nothing preventing you from digitizing the content on your own dime, creating the server infrastructure, and buying the bandwidth necessary to serve it to the world.  I&#039;m sure any number of institutions would like to chat with you if you were willing to put in that kind of effort.

Let&#039;s keep some perspective here, okay?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim Carlile says:<br />
<blockquote>And itâ€™s already begun. To get back to planet Earth, Google has now restricted the downloading of a number of PD journal titles.</p></blockquote>
<p>If the content is truly in the public domain, then anyone can do anything they want with it &#8212; including limiting the number of downloaded copies or how the content is viewed online.  In other words, there is nothing preventing you from digitizing the content on your own dime, creating the server infrastructure, and buying the bandwidth necessary to serve it to the world.  I&#8217;m sure any number of institutions would like to chat with you if you were willing to put in that kind of effort.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s keep some perspective here, okay?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jim Carlile</title>
		<link>http://walt.lishost.org/2009/05/responding-as-politely-as-possible/comment-page-1/#comment-37683</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Carlile</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 07:09:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://walt.lishost.org/?p=1270#comment-37683</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think Bowerbird&#039;s right. In ten years or less, the very real consequences of Google locking everything up for a downloading or view-only fee will overshadow any of these philosophical arguments about exactly what they are doing right now.

And it&#039;s already begun. To get back to planet Earth, Google has now restricted the downloading of a number of PD journal titles. It&#039;s view-only for these guys-- they even claim that the copyright holders have &quot;granted permission&quot; for us to view their full scans! This is disingenuous, of course, but it&#039;s where they are at with this Book scheme. It will only get worse, too.

My concerns are with this privatization of access. I&#039;m not worried about Harvard or UCLA students getting their books, I&#039;m worried about the public at large, who will very quickly be seeing their collections weeded of Google &quot;duplicates&quot; and their only alternative the Google machine.

The worst thing right now is that the negotiated Settlement has already blown any possibility of liberating orphan works from onerous copyright restrictions, because they want to essentially place these works back into print, Google style. It&#039;s no coincidence that the Settlement only mentions orphan works three times in its 100+ pages. That&#039;s because their fate will be a profitable one for Google and Google alone. But it&#039;s very bad public policy, even if it is a nice private gain also for whoever operates those vending machines and the few orphan rightsholders who come out of the woodwork. At the very least, there shouldn&#039;t be a dispute that the Agreement at least puts under private control all orphan works. That&#039;s bad enough.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Bowerbird&#8217;s right. In ten years or less, the very real consequences of Google locking everything up for a downloading or view-only fee will overshadow any of these philosophical arguments about exactly what they are doing right now.</p>
<p>And it&#8217;s already begun. To get back to planet Earth, Google has now restricted the downloading of a number of PD journal titles. It&#8217;s view-only for these guys&#8211; they even claim that the copyright holders have &#8220;granted permission&#8221; for us to view their full scans! This is disingenuous, of course, but it&#8217;s where they are at with this Book scheme. It will only get worse, too.</p>
<p>My concerns are with this privatization of access. I&#8217;m not worried about Harvard or UCLA students getting their books, I&#8217;m worried about the public at large, who will very quickly be seeing their collections weeded of Google &#8220;duplicates&#8221; and their only alternative the Google machine.</p>
<p>The worst thing right now is that the negotiated Settlement has already blown any possibility of liberating orphan works from onerous copyright restrictions, because they want to essentially place these works back into print, Google style. It&#8217;s no coincidence that the Settlement only mentions orphan works three times in its 100+ pages. That&#8217;s because their fate will be a profitable one for Google and Google alone. But it&#8217;s very bad public policy, even if it is a nice private gain also for whoever operates those vending machines and the few orphan rightsholders who come out of the woodwork. At the very least, there shouldn&#8217;t be a dispute that the Agreement at least puts under private control all orphan works. That&#8217;s bad enough.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Eric Hellman</title>
		<link>http://walt.lishost.org/2009/05/responding-as-politely-as-possible/comment-page-1/#comment-37610</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Hellman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 01:17:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://walt.lishost.org/?p=1270#comment-37610</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Walt- Just because something is a monopoly, doesn&#039;t mean it has antitrust problems. Indeed, copyrights, patents and trademarks all create 100% legal monopolies. Randy Picker&#039;s paper does a wonderful job of illuminating the murkiness of antitrust law as applied to the Google Book Search Settlement agreement and makes suggestions as to how possible antitrust concerns might be addressed. http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1387582]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Walt- Just because something is a monopoly, doesn&#8217;t mean it has antitrust problems. Indeed, copyrights, patents and trademarks all create 100% legal monopolies. Randy Picker&#8217;s paper does a wonderful job of illuminating the murkiness of antitrust law as applied to the Google Book Search Settlement agreement and makes suggestions as to how possible antitrust concerns might be addressed. <a href="http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1387582" rel="nofollow">http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1387582</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: bowerbird</title>
		<link>http://walt.lishost.org/2009/05/responding-as-politely-as-possible/comment-page-1/#comment-37595</link>
		<dc:creator>bowerbird</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 07:26:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://walt.lishost.org/?p=1270#comment-37595</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[walt said:
&gt;   I choose not to reiterate things 
&gt;   Iâ€™ve mostly already said 
&gt;   in response to 
&gt;   a pseudonymous comment.

well, walt, i guess you responded
as politely as possible...       ;+)

if this &quot;settlement&quot; is approved,
10 years down the line, it will be
impossible to miss how it was
a terrible mistake for us to make.

and nobody will be debating
the semantics of &quot;monopoly&quot;
at that time...

just you watch and see...

-bowerbird]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>walt said:<br />
&gt;   I choose not to reiterate things<br />
&gt;   Iâ€™ve mostly already said<br />
&gt;   in response to<br />
&gt;   a pseudonymous comment.</p>
<p>well, walt, i guess you responded<br />
as politely as possible&#8230;       ;+)</p>
<p>if this &#8220;settlement&#8221; is approved,<br />
10 years down the line, it will be<br />
impossible to miss how it was<br />
a terrible mistake for us to make.</p>
<p>and nobody will be debating<br />
the semantics of &#8220;monopoly&#8221;<br />
at that time&#8230;</p>
<p>just you watch and see&#8230;</p>
<p>-bowerbird</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jim Carlile</title>
		<link>http://walt.lishost.org/2009/05/responding-as-politely-as-possible/comment-page-1/#comment-37590</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Carlile</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 03:42:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://walt.lishost.org/?p=1270#comment-37590</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Actually, I&#039;m just using PD works as an example of what can happen when one company gets in there and locks up the corpus. This possibility of &quot;privatization&quot; goes beyond just PD works, but I think it&#039;s important to remember that Google can end up privatizing the public domain, and at public expense. It&#039;s still privatization, in a very real, and not abstractly legal, sense.

But the problem with the Google &quot;vending machine&quot; idea goes way beyond public domain works. If libraries can sell copies of copyrighted OOP works, then they will have a great incentive to toss out many older books that aren&#039;t PD. I&#039;m not worried about Harvard, I&#039;m worried about large public libraries.

BTW, it&#039;s true that there&#039;s nothing in the Agreement regarding public domain works-- those are controlled by Google&#039;s separate agreements with the contributing libraries. But in the UC agreement at least, there is no requirement that Google allow free downloads of PD materials-- it&#039;s view only. Downloading is completely discretionary on the part of Google, and if libraries have Google vending machines, how much incentive do they all have to keep giving away their PD corpus for free? Not much.

Most people don&#039;t know this-- they take it as a given that Google will always provide free downloads of PD works. But there is no basis for this faith.

So far the discussion has revolved around abstract notions of privatization in regards to scanning and acquisition. But what I&#039;m talking about is Google locking up the books for profit. That&#039;s privatization front and center, and it can easily happen.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, I&#8217;m just using PD works as an example of what can happen when one company gets in there and locks up the corpus. This possibility of &#8220;privatization&#8221; goes beyond just PD works, but I think it&#8217;s important to remember that Google can end up privatizing the public domain, and at public expense. It&#8217;s still privatization, in a very real, and not abstractly legal, sense.</p>
<p>But the problem with the Google &#8220;vending machine&#8221; idea goes way beyond public domain works. If libraries can sell copies of copyrighted OOP works, then they will have a great incentive to toss out many older books that aren&#8217;t PD. I&#8217;m not worried about Harvard, I&#8217;m worried about large public libraries.</p>
<p>BTW, it&#8217;s true that there&#8217;s nothing in the Agreement regarding public domain works&#8211; those are controlled by Google&#8217;s separate agreements with the contributing libraries. But in the UC agreement at least, there is no requirement that Google allow free downloads of PD materials&#8211; it&#8217;s view only. Downloading is completely discretionary on the part of Google, and if libraries have Google vending machines, how much incentive do they all have to keep giving away their PD corpus for free? Not much.</p>
<p>Most people don&#8217;t know this&#8211; they take it as a given that Google will always provide free downloads of PD works. But there is no basis for this faith.</p>
<p>So far the discussion has revolved around abstract notions of privatization in regards to scanning and acquisition. But what I&#8217;m talking about is Google locking up the books for profit. That&#8217;s privatization front and center, and it can easily happen.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: walt</title>
		<link>http://walt.lishost.org/2009/05/responding-as-politely-as-possible/comment-page-1/#comment-37582</link>
		<dc:creator>walt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2009 19:57:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://walt.lishost.org/?p=1270#comment-37582</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Other than a possible quibble about &quot;what libraries should have been doing&quot;--Michigan was, in fact, doing some of it, but the bucks to do scanning to library standards posed, and pose, a substantial barrier--I have no real disagreement with this latest comment.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Other than a possible quibble about &#8220;what libraries should have been doing&#8221;&#8211;Michigan was, in fact, doing some of it, but the bucks to do scanning to library standards posed, and pose, a substantial barrier&#8211;I have no real disagreement with this latest comment.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Siva Vaidhyanathan</title>
		<link>http://walt.lishost.org/2009/05/responding-as-politely-as-possible/comment-page-1/#comment-37578</link>
		<dc:creator>Siva Vaidhyanathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2009 18:33:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://walt.lishost.org/?p=1270#comment-37578</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I believe  Eric has raised a very important point that reflects on a very different notion of &quot;privatization,&quot; and that is of policy. There was this problem or challenge: It&#039;s safe to say that creating a text-searchable digital index of millions or billions of books, and making them available via the Web would benefit the republic and the planet. Let&#039;s just assume that.

Given that assumption, what prevented us from doing that? Three things: the concentration and expense of the delivery technology (the Web); the expense of scanning, indexing, maintaining, and supporting the collection (what Google is doing but libraries should have been doing); and changing copyright law to facilitate this scanning under the right conditions.

The first challenge took care of itself for most of the United States and Europe -- mostly through libraries. But we still have a long way to go with the rest of the world.

The second challenge is being met (poorly, I would say) by Google boldly reaching out and doing it. Whether libraries should have given away their riches to Google was the subject of most of the debate within the library community before the settlement.

That third challenge is a doozy. Congress should have decided this issue. I firmly believe that if we want something in this country we should petition the legislature and launch a political movement toward that end. Going to courts to solve the problem is unhealthy and risky. This was one of my main criticisms of the Google project before the settlement.

Now, if the settlement prevails, we will see a radical change in the law. Private law is being used to shape public policy over one of the most precious aspects of republican ideology: the incentive system we rely on to fill the public domain with rich texts. This settlement establishes one company as the sole arbiter of a compulsory license over millions of books. It does so through the class-action process. It would establish an elaborate system not unlike ASCAP or BMI, but without the legislative scrutiny, deliberation, and specific exemption from antitrust. 

This is too important to be left to the discretion of one search engine company, a small group of major publishers, a small group of elite authors, and one federal court in the Southern District of New York.

The rest of us should have stake in this process. We do not. We can blog about it all we want but none of the parties cares about our issues and concerns. 

A handful of private actors are making public policy -- thus privatizing the policy-making system.

That&#039;s actually a bigger problem than whether the act of capture &quot;privatizes&quot; the library. We can dispose of semantic disagreements. We can&#039;t dispose of this rather radical change in how policy is implemented.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe  Eric has raised a very important point that reflects on a very different notion of &#8220;privatization,&#8221; and that is of policy. There was this problem or challenge: It&#8217;s safe to say that creating a text-searchable digital index of millions or billions of books, and making them available via the Web would benefit the republic and the planet. Let&#8217;s just assume that.</p>
<p>Given that assumption, what prevented us from doing that? Three things: the concentration and expense of the delivery technology (the Web); the expense of scanning, indexing, maintaining, and supporting the collection (what Google is doing but libraries should have been doing); and changing copyright law to facilitate this scanning under the right conditions.</p>
<p>The first challenge took care of itself for most of the United States and Europe &#8212; mostly through libraries. But we still have a long way to go with the rest of the world.</p>
<p>The second challenge is being met (poorly, I would say) by Google boldly reaching out and doing it. Whether libraries should have given away their riches to Google was the subject of most of the debate within the library community before the settlement.</p>
<p>That third challenge is a doozy. Congress should have decided this issue. I firmly believe that if we want something in this country we should petition the legislature and launch a political movement toward that end. Going to courts to solve the problem is unhealthy and risky. This was one of my main criticisms of the Google project before the settlement.</p>
<p>Now, if the settlement prevails, we will see a radical change in the law. Private law is being used to shape public policy over one of the most precious aspects of republican ideology: the incentive system we rely on to fill the public domain with rich texts. This settlement establishes one company as the sole arbiter of a compulsory license over millions of books. It does so through the class-action process. It would establish an elaborate system not unlike ASCAP or BMI, but without the legislative scrutiny, deliberation, and specific exemption from antitrust. </p>
<p>This is too important to be left to the discretion of one search engine company, a small group of major publishers, a small group of elite authors, and one federal court in the Southern District of New York.</p>
<p>The rest of us should have stake in this process. We do not. We can blog about it all we want but none of the parties cares about our issues and concerns. </p>
<p>A handful of private actors are making public policy &#8212; thus privatizing the policy-making system.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s actually a bigger problem than whether the act of capture &#8220;privatizes&#8221; the library. We can dispose of semantic disagreements. We can&#8217;t dispose of this rather radical change in how policy is implemented.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: walt</title>
		<link>http://walt.lishost.org/2009/05/responding-as-politely-as-possible/comment-page-1/#comment-37574</link>
		<dc:creator>walt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2009 15:14:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://walt.lishost.org/?p=1270#comment-37574</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Eric: If someone translates a public domain work, the translation is, I believe, legitimately copyrightable--and does not in any way lessen access to the original work. So I wouldn&#039;t buy calling that &quot;privatization&quot; either. It doesn&#039;t fit any of the definitions of the word that I&#039;ve found.

As to &quot;general agreement&quot; on a monopoly situation--if there&#039;s actually a consensus among all lawyers and commentators, then isn&#039;t the proposed settlement doomed on antitrust grounds? (There was surely never &quot;general agreement&quot; as to the strength of Google&#039;s fair-use argument; I&#039;m really surprised if there&#039;s legitimately consensus on the monopoly claim. Are Google&#039;s own lawyers really that far out of touch with the entire legal community?)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric: If someone translates a public domain work, the translation is, I believe, legitimately copyrightable&#8211;and does not in any way lessen access to the original work. So I wouldn&#8217;t buy calling that &#8220;privatization&#8221; either. It doesn&#8217;t fit any of the definitions of the word that I&#8217;ve found.</p>
<p>As to &#8220;general agreement&#8221; on a monopoly situation&#8211;if there&#8217;s actually a consensus among all lawyers and commentators, then isn&#8217;t the proposed settlement doomed on antitrust grounds? (There was surely never &#8220;general agreement&#8221; as to the strength of Google&#8217;s fair-use argument; I&#8217;m really surprised if there&#8217;s legitimately consensus on the monopoly claim. Are Google&#8217;s own lawyers really that far out of touch with the entire legal community?)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Eric Hellman</title>
		<link>http://walt.lishost.org/2009/05/responding-as-politely-as-possible/comment-page-1/#comment-37573</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Hellman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2009 14:59:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://walt.lishost.org/?p=1270#comment-37573</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Walt: Looking at the language used in this discussion, I&#039;d have to say that your characterization of Karen&#039;s &quot;privatization&quot; claim as &quot;nonsense&quot; is inaccurate. It may sound odd to describe publishers who sell copyrighted translations of &quot;Romeo and Juliet&quot; as &quot;privatizing Shakespeare&quot;, but it&#039;s not nonsense.

Perhaps the most interesting thing about the use of the word &quot;privatization&quot; is that strictly speaking, the works covered by the settlement agreement are all &quot;private&quot; under US copyright law. In fact, opponents of the settlement agreement on the rightsholder side are criticizing it as an unfair &quot;compulsory license&quot; which infringes on the property rights of authors. 

I think it&#039;s fair to say that there is &quot;general agreement&quot; that the settlement agreement gives Google an &quot;initial monopoly&quot; on works that remain orphans. There is divergence on how to describe Google&#039;s position with respect to other classes of works.

Jim Carlile: The settlement agreement has nothing to do with public domain works. It covers only works that are in copyright.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Walt: Looking at the language used in this discussion, I&#8217;d have to say that your characterization of Karen&#8217;s &#8220;privatization&#8221; claim as &#8220;nonsense&#8221; is inaccurate. It may sound odd to describe publishers who sell copyrighted translations of &#8220;Romeo and Juliet&#8221; as &#8220;privatizing Shakespeare&#8221;, but it&#8217;s not nonsense.</p>
<p>Perhaps the most interesting thing about the use of the word &#8220;privatization&#8221; is that strictly speaking, the works covered by the settlement agreement are all &#8220;private&#8221; under US copyright law. In fact, opponents of the settlement agreement on the rightsholder side are criticizing it as an unfair &#8220;compulsory license&#8221; which infringes on the property rights of authors. </p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s fair to say that there is &#8220;general agreement&#8221; that the settlement agreement gives Google an &#8220;initial monopoly&#8221; on works that remain orphans. There is divergence on how to describe Google&#8217;s position with respect to other classes of works.</p>
<p>Jim Carlile: The settlement agreement has nothing to do with public domain works. It covers only works that are in copyright.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: walt</title>
		<link>http://walt.lishost.org/2009/05/responding-as-politely-as-possible/comment-page-1/#comment-37572</link>
		<dc:creator>walt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2009 14:52:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://walt.lishost.org/?p=1270#comment-37572</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I must have missed something here, as my understanding is that the settlement wouldn&#039;t change the status of scanned public domain works at all--they can be downloaded and reused freely. Even if research libraries took the unprecedented step of tossing out their PD collections (is Harvard really going to abandon pre-1924 books? Are there political pressures on the many private ARL libraries to toss out stuff that Google&#039;s scanned? Really?), I don&#039;t see any probability that the only point of access to PD books could be Google. I thought the whole &quot;privatization&quot; argument had to do with the majority of the scanned books, which are out of print but still covered by copyright.

Apart from that, this is a series of speculations about what might happen--at best a slender rationale for, say &quot;potential privatization through inattention.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I must have missed something here, as my understanding is that the settlement wouldn&#8217;t change the status of scanned public domain works at all&#8211;they can be downloaded and reused freely. Even if research libraries took the unprecedented step of tossing out their PD collections (is Harvard really going to abandon pre-1924 books? Are there political pressures on the many private ARL libraries to toss out stuff that Google&#8217;s scanned? Really?), I don&#8217;t see any probability that the only point of access to PD books could be Google. I thought the whole &#8220;privatization&#8221; argument had to do with the majority of the scanned books, which are out of print but still covered by copyright.</p>
<p>Apart from that, this is a series of speculations about what might happen&#8211;at best a slender rationale for, say &#8220;potential privatization through inattention.&#8221;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
