I’ll argue that, if kids are ruder, it’s because they’re empowered to be ruder by ruder parents who treat Their Little Angels as above reproach. (And I don’t think that’s all or even a majority of parents. I do wonder whether today’s overemphasized youth sports leagues bring out the worst in parents…From what I see in other mixed-use restaurants and public spaces, I do believe this is a worst-case situation for our community. We had a block party a few weeks ago; almost everyone on our block has relatively young kids; many of them were there. The kids weren’t sitting with folded hands and polite looks, but neither were the kids and parents making so much noise that you couldn’t think: It was a pleasant event.)

And I do not, not, NOT argue that libraries should make a habit of evicting kids or teens who make a little noise. Not. My library connection–and it could easily be a wholly mythical case–is with library-organized programs that are noisy by design in spaces that don’t allow for reasonable quiet in other parts of the library, done with such frequency and in such a manner that the older supporters of the library become alienated. That doesn’t need to happen, and maybe it doesn’t happen–but it’s worth considering.

On the other hand, I believe public libraries do, must, should encourage kids and teens to consider the libraries “their space” as well…maintaining a balance means maintaining a balance, which is hard.

Kids really are more rude these days. I remember being afraid to move when my parents took us to restaurants: my sister and I knew there’d be hell to pay later if we did anything more obnoxious than blow bubbles in our chocolate milk (which was also forbidden, much to our consternation). Case in point, my grandparents would take my family out but rarely took out my cousins’ family because those four kids were terrors in public and had a habit of ordering the most expensive item they could find though they would hardly touch it.

Libraries are in a quandary about this issue. One wants to post a sign on the door: “We are not your baby-sitter.” But the people who need to see that are the parents who don’t come anyway. The loud kids are the latch-key kids who are waiting the two hours or so before their parent(s) comes home from work. On the one hand, I feel sorry for them but think that they could be in worse places unattended. On the other hand, I wonder how I turned out so well with two working parents and how these kids became hooligans.

You can’t evict them unless they do something really horrible, but if you don’t, the people who would use the library for its intended purpose won’t come. I don’t see a solution to this beyond what many convenience stores located near schools do: “Only two students at a time.” And they will kick out that third student. Perhaps it is time libraries took the upper hand and became firm about the rules of civility. Sure we believe in free speech–just as much as we believe that people are free to have self-control.

Like Stephen, we were careful as well in going out when our little one was, well, little. But you are right, where has the thoughtfulness gone? The sense of having some consideration? Like you say Walt, Chuck E.’s is one thing. The small restaurant, that is something else.

And I did read Meredith’s post (excellent indeed), and it did make me think about choices some companies make in terms of moving from one demographic to another while leaving the demographic that built their business behind. There is a lesson for libraries because, as you point out, for all the gaming folk, the ones who actually vote on levies and so on are the ones who some would label more “traditional.” There has to be a way to bring in new people while making sure the regulars are not forsaken, yet I often get the impression so many libraries and librarians are more than ready to do just that.

Best, and keep on blogging.

We don’t have this kind of problem elsewhere…and, incidentally, we’re almost never bothered by people having kids with them at dinner under normal circumstances. A couple with two or three kids, one or two of whom act up at times: That’s life, and that’s just fine with us. We expect families to dine out. We expect them to enjoy themselves.

Forty kids and 15-20 adults, with the adults making most of the noise: That’s different. It’s bringing a party into a restaurant and making the other patrons unwanted non-guests. I don’t go to Chuck E. Cheese expecting peace and quiet or even typical family dining; I didn’t expect our local Italian restaurant/pizza place to turn into Chuck E. Cheese.

When our kids were young we only went out to eat at a chinese restaurant that had very little patronage (and wasn’t half bad). That way if one or both kids acted up (fortunately rare) we didn’t feel to bad about ruining anyone’s evening.

Walt, I have a possible solution for you. Now that you are free to take a job anywhere (ok, I know that’s probably not true) you might want to move to downtown Manhattan – probably around the 30s on the east side. You will have loads more restaurants to choose from in a mile radius then you do now and some are so prohibitively expensive that even families with children don’t dare go there.