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	<title>Comments on: Third time&#8217;s the charm/three strikes you&#8217;re out</title>
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	<link>http://walt.lishost.org/2007/01/third-times-the-charmthree-strikes-youre-out/</link>
	<description>The library voice of the radical middle.</description>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://walt.lishost.org/2007/01/third-times-the-charmthree-strikes-youre-out/comment-page-1/#comment-24599</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jan 2007 02:43:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://walt.lishost.org/?p=465#comment-24599</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sure would have liked to have gotten in on this discussion, but this post and the movie post and [e]press post just showed up in my Bloglines!  8 PM+ on the 21st.  Grrrrr.

I can live with lots of folks stuff showing up late but not WaR!

I have to say, one hypothetical comment made me check the date on something not really written by someone posing as me.  Whew!

Now back to slagging Coyle and Hillman on my own time.

Oh, and I agree with everyone.  This is a highly complex topic with a line that completely disappears as one approaches it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sure would have liked to have gotten in on this discussion, but this post and the movie post and [e]press post just showed up in my Bloglines!  8 PM+ on the 21st.  Grrrrr.</p>
<p>I can live with lots of folks stuff showing up late but not WaR!</p>
<p>I have to say, one hypothetical comment made me check the date on something not really written by someone posing as me.  Whew!</p>
<p>Now back to slagging Coyle and Hillman on my own time.</p>
<p>Oh, and I agree with everyone.  This is a highly complex topic with a line that completely disappears as one approaches it.</p>
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		<title>By: Jennifer Macaulay</title>
		<link>http://walt.lishost.org/2007/01/third-times-the-charmthree-strikes-youre-out/comment-page-1/#comment-24529</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer Macaulay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jan 2007 18:57:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://walt.lishost.org/?p=465#comment-24529</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Although I don&#039;t think that what comments are made away from one&#039;s work should reflect upon one&#039;s employer, I definitely agree that this isn&#039;t something that can be controlled (we can&#039;t control people&#039;s reactions to our ideas or thoughts). It is a very muddy area. And, really this isn&#039;t just about work. People will make judgements about the organizations, groups, etc that others belong to based up their public comments. They will even make judgements about people&#039;s family, friends, etc. Fortunately, I think you are correct Walt, that we are discussing worst case scenarios that happen relatively infrequently. Despite this, I think this topic is hugely important - especially given the way that blogs and the like are changing the ways in which we relate to people both personally and professionally.

Thanks for the great discussion!!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Although I don&#8217;t think that what comments are made away from one&#8217;s work should reflect upon one&#8217;s employer, I definitely agree that this isn&#8217;t something that can be controlled (we can&#8217;t control people&#8217;s reactions to our ideas or thoughts). It is a very muddy area. And, really this isn&#8217;t just about work. People will make judgements about the organizations, groups, etc that others belong to based up their public comments. They will even make judgements about people&#8217;s family, friends, etc. Fortunately, I think you are correct Walt, that we are discussing worst case scenarios that happen relatively infrequently. Despite this, I think this topic is hugely important &#8211; especially given the way that blogs and the like are changing the ways in which we relate to people both personally and professionally.</p>
<p>Thanks for the great discussion!!</p>
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		<title>By: walt</title>
		<link>http://walt.lishost.org/2007/01/third-times-the-charmthree-strikes-youre-out/comment-page-1/#comment-24524</link>
		<dc:creator>walt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jan 2007 15:33:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://walt.lishost.org/?p=465#comment-24524</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[All good points, which is why this is a difficult discussion. Ryan, I would note that there are different kinds of jerkiness, but I don&#039;t argue with what you&#039;re saying. (And &quot;jerk&quot; was my deliberately mild term for a variety of different violations of interpersonal norms in semi-polite society.)

I will say that: &quot;My name is my own and I donâ€™t believe it should reflect upon my employer at all&quot; is, as I said in the original post, not really completely possible--and I don&#039;t think it ever has been.  If a schoolteacher in a small town was catting around with the head pharmacist at the town drug store, on their own time, and wasn&#039;t pretty discreet about it, you could bet that the school and the drugstore would both get involved to some degree. Maybe the internet has made &quot;small-town connectedness&quot; much more widespread and peculiar, but the principles are the same. 

Maybe this shouldn&#039;t be true. Maybe work and personal life should be entirely separate. But I don&#039;t think they ever really have been, and I don&#039;t think that&#039;s likely to change. In most cases, all you need is a modicum of common sense. (A working &quot;internal censor&quot; might be nice, but I&#039;ve never been very strong on that account, so...)

Jennifer--Just for fun, I reviewed the past month or so of Life as I Know It. There are things there I might disagree with (as you&#039;d expect). I&#039;ve seen nothing that I could imagine would have the potential for causing you trouble in a work situation (OK, I have a lousy imagination, but)... You don&#039;t beat up on people; you do discuss ideas, honestly and articulately. You don&#039;t write in a way that would appear that you&#039;re indirectly speaking on your employer&#039;s behalf--and you don&#039;t tell secrets about your employer or coworkers.

We should be able to discuss ideas forcefully, honestly, openly, with no fear of reprisal. Some of us may avoid certain topics because there&#039;s no good way to prevent the assumption that we are, somehow, speaking on our employer&#039;s behalf, but that&#039;s pretty rare for most people in libraryland. 

The odd thing is that this is all about fringe cases; based on my liblog, list, and traditional-media reading, I&#039;d say between 95% and 99% of discussions don&#039;t cross any lines you might care to draw.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All good points, which is why this is a difficult discussion. Ryan, I would note that there are different kinds of jerkiness, but I don&#8217;t argue with what you&#8217;re saying. (And &#8220;jerk&#8221; was my deliberately mild term for a variety of different violations of interpersonal norms in semi-polite society.)</p>
<p>I will say that: &#8220;My name is my own and I donâ€™t believe it should reflect upon my employer at all&#8221; is, as I said in the original post, not really completely possible&#8211;and I don&#8217;t think it ever has been.  If a schoolteacher in a small town was catting around with the head pharmacist at the town drug store, on their own time, and wasn&#8217;t pretty discreet about it, you could bet that the school and the drugstore would both get involved to some degree. Maybe the internet has made &#8220;small-town connectedness&#8221; much more widespread and peculiar, but the principles are the same. </p>
<p>Maybe this shouldn&#8217;t be true. Maybe work and personal life should be entirely separate. But I don&#8217;t think they ever really have been, and I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s likely to change. In most cases, all you need is a modicum of common sense. (A working &#8220;internal censor&#8221; might be nice, but I&#8217;ve never been very strong on that account, so&#8230;)</p>
<p>Jennifer&#8211;Just for fun, I reviewed the past month or so of Life as I Know It. There are things there I might disagree with (as you&#8217;d expect). I&#8217;ve seen nothing that I could imagine would have the potential for causing you trouble in a work situation (OK, I have a lousy imagination, but)&#8230; You don&#8217;t beat up on people; you do discuss ideas, honestly and articulately. You don&#8217;t write in a way that would appear that you&#8217;re indirectly speaking on your employer&#8217;s behalf&#8211;and you don&#8217;t tell secrets about your employer or coworkers.</p>
<p>We should be able to discuss ideas forcefully, honestly, openly, with no fear of reprisal. Some of us may avoid certain topics because there&#8217;s no good way to prevent the assumption that we are, somehow, speaking on our employer&#8217;s behalf, but that&#8217;s pretty rare for most people in libraryland. </p>
<p>The odd thing is that this is all about fringe cases; based on my liblog, list, and traditional-media reading, I&#8217;d say between 95% and 99% of discussions don&#8217;t cross any lines you might care to draw.</p>
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		<title>By: Jennifer Macaulay</title>
		<link>http://walt.lishost.org/2007/01/third-times-the-charmthree-strikes-youre-out/comment-page-1/#comment-24523</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer Macaulay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jan 2007 15:07:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://walt.lishost.org/?p=465#comment-24523</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It is a tough call whether (or when) it is appropriate to tell someone they are basking in the light of jerkiness. Ryan makes a good point that one has to be extremely careful about it lest one tars themselves with the same brush. I think a great deal depends upon people&#039;s relationships with each other. I wouldn&#039;t feel comfortable telling people I thought their behavior was reflecting poorly upon themselves unless I knew them - nor would I do it in a public venue. The online environment adds another level of complexity. I can exchange comments, emails and blog posts with people, but do I really know them? At what point, does one&#039;s relationship become viable enough to handle this type of personal criticism?

This conversation is fascinating and gets to the heart of many of my own worries about engaging in public debates.  My name is my own and I don&#039;t believe it should reflect upon my employer at all. It is very scary to think that it could, but that is the reality of life in the age of the internet.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is a tough call whether (or when) it is appropriate to tell someone they are basking in the light of jerkiness. Ryan makes a good point that one has to be extremely careful about it lest one tars themselves with the same brush. I think a great deal depends upon people&#8217;s relationships with each other. I wouldn&#8217;t feel comfortable telling people I thought their behavior was reflecting poorly upon themselves unless I knew them &#8211; nor would I do it in a public venue. The online environment adds another level of complexity. I can exchange comments, emails and blog posts with people, but do I really know them? At what point, does one&#8217;s relationship become viable enough to handle this type of personal criticism?</p>
<p>This conversation is fascinating and gets to the heart of many of my own worries about engaging in public debates.  My name is my own and I don&#8217;t believe it should reflect upon my employer at all. It is very scary to think that it could, but that is the reality of life in the age of the internet.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://walt.lishost.org/2007/01/third-times-the-charmthree-strikes-youre-out/comment-page-1/#comment-24504</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jan 2007 04:34:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://walt.lishost.org/?p=465#comment-24504</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I say that telling someone (publically) that they are being a jerk is not very tactful.  Or rather, you better be very right about the jerkiness before you make that call, or risk appearing jerky yourself.

As a consumer, I don&#039;t often see the connection between the jerk and the employer, unless it&#039;s something really heinous (eg. fraud) and/or I wasn&#039;t really happy with the firm in the first place.     Taking the &quot;how could a company actually hire this jerk&quot; line seems unnecessarily judgmental in my view, especially if I like the product/service the employer is selling me.

Going to an employer for &lt;i&gt;merely&lt;/i&gt; jerky behavior ought to get a quick &quot;thank you and we will look into this matter&quot; (meaning &quot;get a life&quot;).     This, of course, would depend on a few things though -- is this person a public representative?   Did the jerkiness include some level of abuse or harassment?  Fraud?  Indecency?   

And then you have cases like Donald Trump and Simon Cowell whose jerkiness is a part of their employment. 

There are alot of really competent jerks out there.   Studies show that people are apt to prefer the incompetent &quot;nice folks&quot; over the competent jerks and that this preference is usually a mistake on the employer&#039;s part from a GTD point of view.   It&#039;s hard to say, but quick, efficient and effective service with a scowl is better in my view than slow, inaccurate and otherwise crappy service with a smile.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I say that telling someone (publically) that they are being a jerk is not very tactful.  Or rather, you better be very right about the jerkiness before you make that call, or risk appearing jerky yourself.</p>
<p>As a consumer, I don&#8217;t often see the connection between the jerk and the employer, unless it&#8217;s something really heinous (eg. fraud) and/or I wasn&#8217;t really happy with the firm in the first place.     Taking the &#8220;how could a company actually hire this jerk&#8221; line seems unnecessarily judgmental in my view, especially if I like the product/service the employer is selling me.</p>
<p>Going to an employer for <i>merely</i> jerky behavior ought to get a quick &#8220;thank you and we will look into this matter&#8221; (meaning &#8220;get a life&#8221;).     This, of course, would depend on a few things though &#8212; is this person a public representative?   Did the jerkiness include some level of abuse or harassment?  Fraud?  Indecency?   </p>
<p>And then you have cases like Donald Trump and Simon Cowell whose jerkiness is a part of their employment. </p>
<p>There are alot of really competent jerks out there.   Studies show that people are apt to prefer the incompetent &#8220;nice folks&#8221; over the competent jerks and that this preference is usually a mistake on the employer&#8217;s part from a GTD point of view.   It&#8217;s hard to say, but quick, efficient and effective service with a scowl is better in my view than slow, inaccurate and otherwise crappy service with a smile.</p>
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		<title>By: Wendell</title>
		<link>http://walt.lishost.org/2007/01/third-times-the-charmthree-strikes-youre-out/comment-page-1/#comment-24498</link>
		<dc:creator>Wendell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jan 2007 23:08:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://walt.lishost.org/?p=465#comment-24498</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Two things I learned early on about my work (involving the public and public/charitable funding): all life is a job interview, and say it if you must but never put it in writing.

Then I found blogging.  It was a place to say meaningful things in writing.  And, not surprisingly, what I found most meaningful was never far from my vocation of choice.

What we say has consquences: does that mean be quiet?  I&#039;m a bit of a moral coward where my (future) income is concerned.  I&#039;m often (always?) uneasy when I put words in public print.  Public.  I think, more than &quot;in the workplace&quot;/&#039;outside theworkplace&quot; its that publc character that is at the heart of the issue.

Maybe?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two things I learned early on about my work (involving the public and public/charitable funding): all life is a job interview, and say it if you must but never put it in writing.</p>
<p>Then I found blogging.  It was a place to say meaningful things in writing.  And, not surprisingly, what I found most meaningful was never far from my vocation of choice.</p>
<p>What we say has consquences: does that mean be quiet?  I&#8217;m a bit of a moral coward where my (future) income is concerned.  I&#8217;m often (always?) uneasy when I put words in public print.  Public.  I think, more than &#8220;in the workplace&#8221;/&#8217;outside theworkplace&#8221; its that publc character that is at the heart of the issue.</p>
<p>Maybe?</p>
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		<title>By: Dorothea Salo</title>
		<link>http://walt.lishost.org/2007/01/third-times-the-charmthree-strikes-youre-out/comment-page-1/#comment-24493</link>
		<dc:creator>Dorothea Salo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jan 2007 16:11:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://walt.lishost.org/?p=465#comment-24493</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I hear you, Walt, and the reason I weighed in is that I&#039;m working this through for myself, too.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hear you, Walt, and the reason I weighed in is that I&#8217;m working this through for myself, too.</p>
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		<title>By: walt</title>
		<link>http://walt.lishost.org/2007/01/third-times-the-charmthree-strikes-youre-out/comment-page-1/#comment-24485</link>
		<dc:creator>walt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jan 2007 20:24:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://walt.lishost.org/?p=465#comment-24485</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[On the other hand, Joshua, expect an essay/chapter in the February C&amp;I that does, among other things, suggest the virtues of contemplation (and deep breathing). I still am one of those Left Coast types...and probably always will be.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the other hand, Joshua, expect an essay/chapter in the February C&#038;I that does, among other things, suggest the virtues of contemplation (and deep breathing). I still am one of those Left Coast types&#8230;and probably always will be.</p>
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		<title>By: joshua m. neff</title>
		<link>http://walt.lishost.org/2007/01/third-times-the-charmthree-strikes-youre-out/comment-page-1/#comment-24484</link>
		<dc:creator>joshua m. neff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jan 2007 20:16:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://walt.lishost.org/?p=465#comment-24484</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I can&#039;t speak for anyone else, but I pretty much got that, Walt. I don&#039;t really expect guru-y preachiness from you. OMMMMMMM...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t speak for anyone else, but I pretty much got that, Walt. I don&#8217;t really expect guru-y preachiness from you. OMMMMMMM&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: walt</title>
		<link>http://walt.lishost.org/2007/01/third-times-the-charmthree-strikes-youre-out/comment-page-1/#comment-24483</link>
		<dc:creator>walt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jan 2007 20:07:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://walt.lishost.org/?p=465#comment-24483</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Now that this post has evoked a surprising amount of first-rate discussion (surprising for an odd, semi-blind, hard-to-follow post), I think I should clarify one other thing:

I&#039;m really saying &quot;This is the way I believe &lt;i&gt;I&lt;/i&gt; should behave, even if I don&#039;t always live up to it.&quot; I guess I&#039;m also saying &quot;This is one reasonable way to behave.&quot;

I am &lt;b&gt;not&lt;/b&gt; saying &quot;This is the only reasonable way to behave&quot; or &quot;This is how everyone should behave.&quot; 

I&#039;m observing, not setting myself up as a guru.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now that this post has evoked a surprising amount of first-rate discussion (surprising for an odd, semi-blind, hard-to-follow post), I think I should clarify one other thing:</p>
<p>I&#8217;m really saying &#8220;This is the way I believe <i>I</i> should behave, even if I don&#8217;t always live up to it.&#8221; I guess I&#8217;m also saying &#8220;This is one reasonable way to behave.&#8221;</p>
<p>I am <b>not</b> saying &#8220;This is the only reasonable way to behave&#8221; or &#8220;This is how everyone should behave.&#8221; </p>
<p>I&#8217;m observing, not setting myself up as a guru.</p>
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